Did Jesus steal the donkeys?

TTV 14.5.2024:  I am currently slowly getting through Tolstoy's classic War and Peace. It of course relates, some fifty years after the event, the invasion of Russia, as far as Moscow, of the then feared and indomitable French army of Napoleon Bonaparte, which eventually ended in disaster, much as what happened to a certain dictator some 130 years later. 

We can draw our own parallels and conclusions in regards to current events, with the proviso that humans and nations never seem to learn, nor do their leaders, quite immune and callous as to the immeasurable suffering they cause in pursuit of their egos and ideology.

However of all the superlative prose in this epic work, one paragraph struck me with particular force and I will copy it here:  

"And it never enters anyone's head, that to admit a greatness not commensurable with the standard of right and wrong, is merely to admit one's own nothingness and littleness. For us who have the standard of good and evil given us by Christ, nothing can claim to be outside the law. And there is no greatness where simplicity, goodness and truth are absent." (Book 4. Part 3: 18)

In the current political climate and the terrible conditions prevailing in at least Ukraine and Palestine and to the stance taken by governments and political and religious leaders (or not as the case may be), no words could be more cogent or applicable.

Dom Lowe

It's simply not overpoweringly forced onto the masses these days as it used to be Tim, church attendances are declining rapidly as we discover more about the universe and let science show us the way instead of 2,000-year old middle-eastern goat-herders stories . . .

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Tim Veater

Dom Lowe "2,000-year old middle-eastern goat-herders stories . . ." I've seen that line before I think. It's interesting to surmise what the past 2000 years (at least) would have been like without them. I have a feeling if they had not been, someone would have invented them. Presumably Norse gods or one of the other belief systems would have filled the void. We are unavoidably, including our scepticism, a product of our culture. If you strip Europe of its Christianity, it would no longer be recognisable as such. But all this is a separate matter to the first century man called Jesus, in that still ravaged middle eastern territory, what he claimed and what he taught, that remains an unassailable moral standard by which to live, whether you accept the metaphysical aspects or not.

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Dom Lowe

Aye, that’s a phrase I use often Tim, I guess what made a good story to them is less relevant to us today and I agree, were it not for these stories others would’ve taken their place.

Yes the stories tell us he was good bloke but the stuff that accompanies that like the immaculate conception, feeding of the 5,000, healing a blind man, the resurrection etc is just ridiculous.

Matthew 21:2 he tells his disciples to steal a donkey because god said it's ok and they do it.

Mark 11: 12-25 he kills a fig tree because it's got no fruit, even though it's not in season.

Mark 5:13 he sends a herd of pigs over a cliff to their deaths by casting out demons 

Matthew 15:21-28 he calls a non Jewish woman a dog when she wants him to heal her sick daughter, says he's only been sent here to help the Jews, only when she begs and calls herself a dog does he help, does the miracle anyway but is still is a bit of a dick about it!

Luke 14:26 he tells people to hate their mothers fathers etc. and hate themselves in order to follow him and he's not here to bring peace but a sword.

And there are plenty more examples which don’t meet my moral standards . . .

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Tim Veater

Dom Lowe He was certainly a memorable character then? Very human - warts and all. lol

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Tim Veater

You put an interesting spin on the events as reported nearly two thousand years ago. More than the person who wrote them even! But just to deal with your first example, nowhere does it actually say, 'God said it's OK'. That must be your interpretation. What it does say, is that it was to fulfill a prophesy. As we know, if the writing of these disciples can be believed, both they and Jesus were familiar with all the Old Testament writings, and were always aware of their significance. Some still see history and events in that light - as a Divine unfolding. I am not saying I necessarily agree, but what cannot be denied is that it is deeply embedded in the human psyche. People see their individual lives in that way also, how in a sense life is but an unreeling of the inevitable when viewed backwards, as it were. A process of fate or predestination. Nor does it imply he was 'stealing' the two animals. Leaving aside the possibility of supernatural powers, Jesus obviously knew they were there in advance. What is to say the owner was not a supporter who had agreed to lend them? We hear no more about the animals after the triumphal entry into Jerusalem, so presumably the animals returned to their owner. In a modern context in films how often does the hero take over a car to chase the villain or carry out an heroic act. Nobody in the cinema objects on moral grounds. All the 'Gospels' written within seventy years, and incredibly preserved to this day, take a different slant on the events. Of them, Matthew's is the most Messianic, making the case for a divine work of redemption and renewal; a transference of the ancient Abrahamic promises, to the Gentiles. In other words a seismic cosmic event, that Jews to this day, find offensive. Jesus was at that moment the celebrity being worshipped by the crowd, presumably the same crowd that only a few days later was calling for his death. That in itself is a powerful lesson in justice and the fickle nature of human values. These are poignant scenes as memorable as Shakespeare, our preeminent dramatist, ever wrote. It is hard work to decipher them or to say what is fact or fiction. Everything turns on understanding and interpretation. The stories operate on multiple levels. We draw meaning and inspiration from them as we would from a work of art. I am reminded of that section in 'Dead Poets' Society' on the meaning of poetry, where to analyse it according to strict rules is to destroy it. Whether we like it or not, we are in the grip of history, both personal and global. We cannot escape it. The events of two thousand years ago still resonate to this day, however we choose to interpret them but dismissing them out of hand and completely? Tell it to the Marines, LOL. Kind regards, T.